Bug 971 - Bluetooth icon disappears
: Bluetooth icon disappears
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Product: Connectivity
Bluetooth
: 4.1 (4.2008.23-14)
: N800 Maemo
: Medium enhancement with 6 votes (vote)
: 5.0-beta
Assigned To: Antti Peltomaa
: bluetooth-bugs
: http://www.hanno.de/blog/2007/01/25/m...
:
:
:
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Reported: 2007-01-25 18:41 UTC by Hanno Zulla
Modified: 2009-04-28 15:34 UTC (History)
7 users (show)

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Description Hanno Zulla (reporter) 2007-01-25 18:41:23 UTC
While it's wonderful that the N800 now supports BT keyboards out of the box,
the
BT settings are odd. You can easily make the BT icon disappear, and you have to
dig deep into the control panel to make it reappear.

It would be nicer if the BT icon wouldn't disappear, but just turned
inactive/gray when bluetooth is off.
Comment 1 Hanno Zulla (reporter) 2007-01-25 18:42:13 UTC
http://www.hanno.de/blog/2007/01/25/minor-nit-the-disappearing-bluetooth-icon/

...shows the problem with a small animated GIF.
Comment 2 Laurent GUERBY 2007-02-18 18:55:12 UTC
I second this request, with a Nokia SU-8W keyboard, it's painful to have to go
back to control panel just to reenable bluetooth whereas the keyboard already
has practical on/off (fold or small button).

Also mentionned here:
http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-users/2007-February/004021.html
Comment 3 Bastien Nocera 2007-02-19 01:27:44 UTC
I agree with that as well. MacOS X shows a greyed-out icon when bluetooth is
disabled.
Comment 4 Sean Luke 2007-02-26 06:47:10 UTC
I must also second this: it's quite irritating for the bluetooth icon to come
and go in the status bar icons.  
Why can't it stay?  And is there a reason it can't be merged with the 802.11
connectivity icon in some 
dual-meaningful manner, to save space?
Comment 5 Neil MacLeod maemo.org 2007-02-27 02:51:17 UTC
In addition to confirming that the Bluetooth icon behaviour is badly broken (it
should not disappear) I also have to agree that using two seperate icons to
control wireless connectivity is a waste of extremely valuable Status bar real
estate - this functionality should be combined into a single wireless
connectivity icon/menu.
Comment 6 Jake Kunnari 2007-03-14 13:30:08 UTC
Changed to Enhancement and added Quim Gil to cc-field
Comment 7 Jake Kunnari 2007-03-14 13:30:25 UTC
-
Comment 8 Neil MacLeod maemo.org 2007-03-14 14:18:50 UTC
This is definately NOT an enhancement request - this is a significant issue
(bug) with the current 2.2006.51-6 firmware. If it isn't fixed in the upcoming
firmware, it needs to be.

The bluetooth status icon randomly disappears which is not right - it should be
visible at all times so that the user can become visibile/inivisible whenever
they wish without having to access the control panel, and can pair with other
devices (keyboards etc.)
Comment 9 Quim Gil nokia 2007-03-15 14:23:22 UTC
Picking this one.
Comment 10 josh 2007-03-23 23:13:24 UTC
Perhaps the developer(s) working on the BT connectivity should take a look at
the 770's bluetooth plugin for guidance as to how this should look and work. 

https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-bt-plugin/
Comment 11 Neil MacLeod maemo.org 2007-03-23 23:19:10 UTC
Not fixed in 3.2007.10-7

With the latest firmware, disabling Bluetooth via the status bar icon will
result in the icon disappearing until Bluetooth is reactivated either by
establishing a connection with a device (eg. a mobile phone) or re-enabling via
the control panel.

This behaviour makes no sense - the icon should be greyed out or have a red
strikethrough, the latter being consistent with the existing "offline" icons.
Comment 12 Randall Arnold 2007-04-06 00:04:25 UTC
I don't think the BT icon should be merged with wifi, given that IMO the 
differences are more profound than the similarities, but the BT icon and its 
settings should definitely be pervasive.
Comment 13 josh 2007-04-06 18:34:27 UTC
I wanted to clarify an earlier comment: Once a BT keyboard is recognized by the
device it should be able to connect w/out having to go to the control panel/BT
app/devices/edit/connect every time - even after not using the KB for a few
minutes.  This is how the BT-plugin on the 770 worked (see earlier comment)- tap
a few keys on a keyboard and it connected.  Perhaps I should submit a new bug
report for this?
Comment 14 Quim Gil nokia 2007-04-06 22:27:26 UTC
Hi, please let me understand better the issue.

- By default BT is disconnected and the applet not visible. In principle there 
is nothing wrong about this: as far as I'm not using BT I don't even see it and 
there is no extra icon eating expensive real estate in the applet bar.

- Let's say that I want to have BT activated by default. I go to control pannel 
and set BT on. The icon applet appears in the bar. This applet lets me do a 
couple of things: set my device visible/invisible or switch BT off.

- Visible/invisible doesn't affect the icon (in fact having a different icon 
showing the status would be a potentially sensible feature, feel free to 
request - although I'm not the designer  ;) )

- Switching off manually the BT services makes the icon disappear. The 
discussion is whether it makes more sense to keep it, showing an inactive 
status that would allow to activate the service again from that applet. The 
current conclusion is that it is better making it disappear, so we don't have 
inactive services occupying that expensive real estate. Performing actions 
requiring the reactivation of the service should bring the icon back to the bar.

The question is: what use cases de we have to activate again the BT service? 
Activate it just to activate it is not the most sensible case, we want to 
perform an action after activating.

One use case would be: 

* Exchange files with a paired mobile phone. In this case you go to the File 
Manager, the paired device should appear under "Bluetooth" even if the 
connection and the BT service is currently deactivated, and selecting your 
paired phone should bring the BT connection up, and the BT icon to the applet 
bar.

I don't see anything wrong in this use case, please bring more real use cases 
so we can check them up.

Next week I'll find a BT keyboard in the house and test the behaviour with the 
last IT OS image. I confess not having tried yet with one of these...

I also talked briefly to the designer in charge of the BT stuff. He told me 
even more briefly that there are changes expected in the behaviour of this 
applet. I'll try to find the time to know more about these plans.
Comment 15 Andrew Flegg maemo.org 2007-04-06 22:57:57 UTC
Bluetooth keyboards are *exactly* the use case. As you say, you can prompt
connection to a mobile phone through the File Manager, but there is no easy way
in the UI to turn Bluetooth back on to connect to a paired keyboard.
Comment 16 Sean Luke 2007-04-06 23:27:13 UTC
My bluetooth use case is using OBEX Push, etc. to my (Nokia!) phone.  I want to
keep Bluetooth off mostly 
to save power and (barely) to prevent hacking.  But I often want to hook up to
the phone -- I need to turn 
Bluetooth back on and I can't do so without wending my way through the control
panels because when I 
turn Bluetooth off, the icon DISAPPEARS and I cannot turn it on.

Use case or not, this is bad form: unless you have a dang good reason to do
otherwise, all operations 
should be trivially reversable.  If you turn off bluetooth, you should be able
to turn it on basically the same 
way.  Imagine if the power button on the device disappeared as soon as you
turned it off, and instead to 
turn it on you had to open the back panel, remove the battery, and press a
hidden switch in there.
Comment 17 Quim Gil nokia 2007-04-06 23:42:20 UTC
Andrew, yes I will look to the keyboard thing.

Sean, isn't this the case I was referring to?

- Tablet with BT off, paired phone with BT on.
- I want to hook up to the phone. I go to Fila Manager and select the phone. BT 
goes automatically on and the icon appears back in the applet bar.

This saves me one step comparing to activating BT first and then selecting the 
phone in the File Manager. Or am I missing your point?

About operations trivially reversable, in fact this is not as univoque as you 
expose it. In a GNOME desktop you have a notification areas showing icons 
relating to active services. When the service goes off the icon disappears. In 
many cases you can turn the service off clicking the icon and selecting the 
option, making the icon disappear just as it happens with the BT icon.

But well, before writing more I will see what are the future plans for this BT 
icon.  :)
Comment 18 Randall Arnold 2007-04-07 00:02:01 UTC
To Sean's points:

For one, on my device, activating the phone for DUN automatically turns 
bluetooth on-- well, 90% of the time anyway.

But his other points are fully valid.  And while Qim's example of the GNOME 
desktop may be accurate, it ignores that fact that the *other* icons don't 
disappear.  I think comparing the BT icon with other icons on the same device 
is more valid than comparing against those of other desktops.
Comment 19 Neil MacLeod maemo.org 2007-04-07 00:03:28 UTC
> - Switching off manually the BT services makes the icon disappear. The 
> discussion is whether it makes more sense to keep it, showing an inactive 
> status that would allow to activate the service again from that applet. The 
> current conclusion is that it is better making it disappear, so we don't have 
> inactive services occupying that expensive real estate. Performing actions 
> requiring the reactivation of the service should bring the icon back to the
> bar.

OK - I kind of understand where you are coming from on this, and I might even
agree that it is appropriate behaviour in some cases. However I also believe
there are those users who wish the applet to be persistent in the applet bar, in
which case add a "Hide when inactive" option to the Bluetooth configuration in
Control Panel and everyone is happy. Inactive BT should be shown with the
gr[ea]y BT icon which already exists.

> Visible/invisible doesn't affect the icon (in fact having a different icon 
> showing the status would be a potentially sensible feature, feel free to 
> request - although I'm not the designer  ;) )

On SonyEricsson phones the "visible" icon is typically the Bluetooth symbol (8)
with a left-chevron "<" to the right of the symbol (eg. 8<). I guess this is
supposed to indicate that the device is available for inbound connections.

"Hidden" BT is just the BT symbol without the chevron. I'm not sure what is
shown on Nokia phones - I won't have my N95 until the end of the month. :)


BTW, excellent discussion Quim - I'm so happy to see Bugzilla becoming more
active in this way! Many, many thanks! :)
Comment 20 Randall Arnold 2007-04-07 00:05:12 UTC
Oops-- I misunderstood Sean's point regarding BT and his phone.  My bad.
Comment 21 Sean Luke 2007-04-07 00:55:01 UTC
Consider the other way around.  I want to send something from the phone to the
N800 via push.  I can't 
do it unless the N800's bluetooth is turned on.  Once I've turned bluetooth
off, the only obvious way to 
turn it on again, presently, is to wander around in the connection panels.  :-(

As to reversability: appealing to GNOME doesn't help one's case.  GNOME is
terrible when it comes to 
usability, and if GNOME does things like the BT icon, then it's a *bad* idea in
GNOME as well.

The control panel icons aren't just icons which light up to inform you of
what's happening.  They are GUI 
widgets which pop up menus.  They're switches.  Imagine if you had a light
switch which disappeared after 
you flicked it.  That's the user experience right now.  If GNOME does this by
default in other cases, 
something's rotten at RedHat.
Comment 22 josh 2007-04-14 05:24:39 UTC
(In reply to comment #13)
> I wanted to clarify an earlier comment: Once a BT keyboard is recognized by 
the
> device it should be able to connect w/out having to go to the control panel/BT
> app/devices/edit/connect every time - even after not using the KB for a few
> minutes.  This is how the BT-plugin on the 770 worked (see earlier comment)- 
tap
> a few keys on a keyboard and it connected.  Perhaps I should submit a new bug
> report for this?

Hmmm.  I just found out that I don't have to go through the BS mentioned above 
with my keyboard.  It works as it should.  However the icon shouldn't disappear 
when turned off.
Comment 23 Quim Gil nokia 2007-04-23 14:26:14 UTC
I haven't been able to do the checks with a BT keyboard yet. What I have done
though is to talk to Roope from the UI team to look at this whole request. He
will be able to explain if this is the best behavior planned by the UI team and
why, or if they agree that there is room for improvement.

Until now the best arguments from my very humble opinion have been:

- OK real estate is expensive, but why the BT icon disappears while the rest don't?

- OK some will like to have the BT icon only when needed but why not making this
a selectable option, and show it always by default (or vice versa)?

All in all I see it as a minor enhancement, though. The functionality works and
has some good insights. The problem is when you come from  the desktop paradigm,
I agree the current functionality has little more of mobile phone behavior.
Which I'm not sure if it's good or bad.

Thank you for this very interesting debate, I'll leave the resolution to Roope & co.
Comment 24 Roope Rainisto nokia 2007-05-22 11:01:25 UTC
Reassign bug.
Comment 25 Antti Peltomaa nokia 2007-05-22 16:38:02 UTC
Interesting discussion and different viewpoints :)

The current BT indicator design is a compromise; personally I don't like whole
indicator that much and I do agree that there are problems with it. In
principal it is not good to have a design where you can switch something "off"
from somewhere but you can't switch it back "on" from the same place. Although
in this case Bluetooth is still switched "on" automatically always when it's
needed (expect for the "set device visible" use case, I know).

However, we have a strong requirement to reduce the amount of permanent Status
bar indicators. Status bar is crowded already and we should prefer temporary
Status indicators (like alarm and usb indicators). The primary function of
Status bar indicators is to indicate status - controlling something from there
is secondary. Of course you may disagree and can continue that discussion in
some other forum ;)

We are going to change this design in future releases. Maybe not as a permanent
indicator, but let's see. 

I'm resolving this bug as "wontfix" because it's more like a feature request.
But don't worry: we are not ignoring your input on this subject.
Comment 26 Roope Rainisto nokia 2007-08-21 12:53:57 UTC
*** Bug 1729 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 27 Neil MacLeod maemo.org 2007-11-04 16:26:56 UTC
*** Bug 2103 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 28 Zuber 2008-01-07 20:28:46 UTC
Hi Guys,

Might I suggest a possible alternative compromise (other than a don't hide when
inactive option in the control panel).

If lack of realestate is a big issue and people (including me) want a quick way
to turn bluetooth back on again, then why not have an enable/disable bluetooth
option on the wifi icon popup list.

It's not really a WiFi icon but a "Connectivity" Icon anyway.

So just 2 taps and Bluetooth is enabled/disabled.

While we're at it, you could add Visible/Invisible to the actual Bluetooth Icon
Popup menu options. This would round things off nicely.

Though personally, I think it would be possible to combine the 2 icons.

If combining, Worst case when not connected would be 6 menu options instead of
4.

Might need to play with the wording to avoid confusion about internet
connectivity v pairing. Perhaps online/offline or OnInternet/OffInternet or
something. Change the Power Button Offline to FlightMode.

e.g.
FOR INTERNET
1. No Connection/Current Connection.

2. Select Connection/Disconnect.

3. Change Connection

4. Connectivity Setting

FOR BLUETOOTH

5. Enable/Disable 

6. Make Visible/Invisible

7/8. Disconnect from ...

What do you think :)

Zuber
Comment 29 Randall Arnold 2008-02-13 22:07:20 UTC
Revisiting the idea of merging the wifi and bluetooth icons...

If real estate is the issue, why not a dropdown icon representing both wifi and
bluetooth?  Clicking on it would drop down a list actions for both, which could
be separated by a thin line.  As for active status, the dual use icon could
show, say, a little wifi "sub" icon on top and a bt sub icon on bottom.  Status
would be indicated by color.  Just one example.

But I still think a user-selectable setting for ALL task bar icons is the way
to go.  A checkbox for "taskbar icon visible" available in the configuration
for each one.  Easy... right, Roope?  ; )

-Texrat
Comment 30 Quim Gil nokia 2008-09-29 11:18:12 UTC
(In reply to comment #25)
> We are going to change this design in future releases. Maybe not as a permanent
> indicator, but let's see. 
> 
> I'm resolving this bug as "wontfix" because it's more like a feature request.
> But don't worry: we are not ignoring your input on this subject.

Now we know more about future plans.

In Fremantle the status area and applets are being redesigned integrating
several UI and usability improvements. 

About the BT icon, the problem in fact is not that it appears or disappears,
but that the user has to go through several steps to activate it when it's
disactivated. With Fremantle the user will be able to change the Bluetooth
status after a single tap. Problem solved.
Comment 31 Andre Klapper maemo.org 2008-09-29 11:37:20 UTC
Thanks for clarifying the plans for Fremantle. I think WONTFIX isn't that
appropriate, changing to FIXED (because one click is basically the same as "not
disappearing").
Comment 32 Andre Klapper maemo.org 2009-04-28 15:34:41 UTC
Setting Target Milestone to Fremantle SDK beta.